Full Version: HEEEELLLLPPPP!!!!!!!!!! ADA Signage
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#25]
12 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18] 12 May 2006
Chuck, I'm not a signmaker and know nothing about ADA signs beyond what I've read here, but it sounds like there's a lot of details involved.
Something you might want to ponder before jumping into it is: If there are a lot of signmakers on the islands, and none of them do ADA signs themselves... why not? Is it just because they don't own the right tools? Or is it because learning all the details and keeping them straight is too big a job for them? Or because any simple mistake or omission might make them liable (as the "expert") for the cost of redoing a massive number of signs on a large job? Or can they get it done so cheap on the mainland that you might not make a profit trying to match (or beat) the prices they are getting now?
I don't know the answer. I'm just pushing the question out there for you to think about.
From: sprinter [#26]
12 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#1] 12 May 2006
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#27]
12 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#17] 12 May 2006
Aloha Chuck.
There were several sign companies on Oahu making tactile ADA signage; Hawaiian Sign and Creative Signs & Design, at least in 1998 when I arrived here. I have no idea if either has stayed with in house fabrication or not. Creative Signs brought me to Hawaii to manage their interior signage production. Long story... I owned an interior architectural sign company in the Midwest for 23 years. I was heavily involved with making ADA compliant signage in-house from 1992 until I relocated to Hawaii in 1998. Its tedious brudda!
Everything you've read here regarding the complexity of the law itself, dealing with architects (I called them design Nazis) and tedious fabrication is all true. Manufacturing tactile signage is probably the single biggest PIA in the sign industry and very hard to make good profit on due to the initial set up cost of equipment and the labor intensive requirements of making the product.
At the time I was making ADA signage, there were really only three processes available that produced a clean enough looking brailled sign that architects and designers would accept. The raster method of drilling holes and inserting beads, photo etch and an embossed lexan process. I believe the embossed process has since gone out of existence. Plus keep in mind that most times you'd be required to custom paint the product. There's really not that much call for using off the shelf substrates like acrylic for ADA sign systems. And so you will need a spray booth as well as equipment to make tactile lettering and Braille.
The ADA was modified in 1999 I believe with a lessening of some of the original requirements for background color and contrast on a tactile sign. Many designers are now designing a 2-part sign with a tactile area and a more creatively designed background for the "visual part" of the sign. (You've seen it here, lots of Plumeria, Hybiscis, Palm frond design elements on a sign). Many designers also call out custom shape now. That opens up an entirely new Pandora's Box! Means that somewhere along the way you will be required to custom route shape and back screen print designs on non-glare acrylic and/or make a clear acrylic insert type of sign that the customer can insert printed designs and copy into. So add custom routing and screen printing into the mix.
And your product better look as finished as signage from one of the national sign companies or the architect will reject it. I'd recommend going to a couple of high end resorts in Wailea or Kaanapali to see what the product you're considering making must conform to. If you think you can match this type of product, then go for it.
But don't even think about getting into this without buying something like the $300 Accent Sign reference manual. You will be required to be well versed in all aspects of the ADA as it relates to signage. This is much more complex with so much more responsibility and liability for the fabricator than running a vinyl banner shop or engraving shop ever was for example.
And please consider this: we in Hawaii pay 25% more than sign manufacturers on the mainland for raw materials due to shipping. Add the time and labor required to make a series of 25-200 signs on contract, especially if you're a sub-contractor selling wholesale, and I think you can begin understanding why so many of these contracts are sent back to the Mainland for fabrication. In the end its cheaper than trying to set up to do it here. I'd suggest you save the $30,000+ it would take you to get set up and walk away. You can't make any money as a sub with this product.
Sorry we missed connecting a few weeks back when you called. Please call again or send me a PM with your number. I lost the info you sent.
EDITED: 12 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#28]
12 May 2006
To: ALL
Hi Gang....
Thanks for all the information....I have NO idea how this thread came to be in focus again, because I had given up the idea of ADA signage a long time ago, BUT, thank you all for your input in reinforcing that it was the right thing to do....
American Pacific Awards...is developing it's own focus and taking on a life of it's own...which is ok with me :)
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#29]
12 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#28] 12 May 2006
Doh!
I think I helped contribute here Chuck. I've just started visiting here again, saw this ADA post (an area I'm familiar with) saw the time stamp which looked current.....except that it was 2005 and not 2006.
I'm really glad you abandoned this idea. Tactile sign fab is a huge pain in the keester.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#30]
12 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#29] 13 May 2006
Mike,
I know, first-hand, that one man's pain in the keester, is another's inroad to job security and a unique niche. :-)
EDITED: 12 May 2006 by DGL
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#31]
13 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#30] 13 May 2006
very true Dave. I carved out the interior architectural signage niche for myself and pretty much owned the market in Omaha and surrounds for many years. Omaha is one of those strange places that defies simple logic. There are a number of International Fortune 500 companies headquartered there like ConAgra for example, the Union Pacific Railroad. All have huge campus complexes of buildings employing thousands, all needed signage on an ongoing basis. Add a huge insurance industry, Mutual of Omaha, Physicians Mutual and several of the world's largest architectural/engineering design firms like Leo A Daly and it was a good place to have a niche and be noticed. One of my accounts was USWest. I got plugged into them when they were headquartered in Omaha as Northwestern Bell. After the consolidation of all the baby Bells in the late 80's, I ended up supplying interior signage to most of their properties in a 14 state region. I probably made 20,000 tactile signs and other ADA compliant signage for them over 10 years. I never wanted for lucrative high-end projects. I have work installed from Pacso, Washington to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and points between....
....end of credential rant.......just trying to let prople know that I do understand this product and market.
It is doable. The point I was trying to drive home is that getting involved with ADA compliant tactile signs is more involved than drilling holes and inserting beads. Much more involved than a typical engraving job. But if someone is up to the challenge and sees a way in, Go for it!
EDITED: 13 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#32]
13 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#31] 13 May 2006
I understand what you're saying.
As much as I've created a niche, in taking on unusual engraving tasks, it's not something I would recommend to most people.
Similar to learning the intricacies of ADA signage protocol, it's not for everyone.