Full Version: Phenolic Tags
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3]
6 May 2005
To: buck [#1] 6 May 2005
Buck,
I have been around this industry awhile. Long enough to realize there's no single formula for pricing.
Some price per line; Others per letter. Some by 3-5 times material cost.
My suggestion, with the number of plates you mentioned, is to have them prefabricated. Cutting phenolic requires carbide-tipped saw blades and a nice-looking finished product should be beveled.
The labor involved in fabricating the plates could outweigh your engraving time. If you don't own a cutter grinder, make sure you have plenty of extra cutters on hand. Phenolic makes short work of a sharp cutter.
It's a good order and one you certainly don't want to turn down. If you feel it's out of your range of expertise or equipment capability, I'd say farm it out and mark it up.
The thread Dee mentioned starts with post 1225.1
If you go to the very bottom of the left-hand column of topic folders you'll see a small window where you can "Navigate" the thread by entering that number.
EDITED: 6 May 2005 by DGL
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#4]
6 May 2005
To: buck [#1] 6 May 2005
Hi Buck - I'm not going to give you a price you should charge for your phenolic tags, because everyone needs to know what they need to charge for their shop by figuring out how much it costs them to provide that tag and what they want their profit level to be.
However, some tips on doing the tags that will make the job go smoother. Phenolic is a bear to work with, so make sure you get the tags pre-cut by someone like Ability Plastics - very reasonable and quick turnaround. Buy more than you need. I like to engrave the matte side -just a personal preference.
The only way you will do a great job engraving the tags on your rotary engraver, no matter what brand of engraver, is to have your cutters absolutely sharp.
Whichever cutter size you decide works for you (on a 1 x 3, engraving 3 lines I will usually use a .015), get extra. You can engrave about 20 tags before you will need to change cutters. You might need to change cutters more often, or you might get more tags than 20. Once your cutter starts to lose even a little sharpness, you will start to notice the tops of the letter disappear and you can't just make the cutter go deeper to make up for it - change the cutter as soon as you notice this happening.
I'll use a Helvetica single line, gothic or universal font depending on the information and how condensed the lettering gets.
It's not that phenolic is so hard to engrave, it's that it take such a toll on your machine and cutters. Remember that when working out your pricing and charge accordingly.
Also remember perceived value - not too many people will engrave on phenolic anymore, so if you get a reputation for being able to engrave on it, the word gets out.
Cindy
From: Mick [#5]
6 May 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#4] 9 May 2005
From: buck [#6]
6 May 2005
To: ALL
Thanks for the input everyone.
I guess the main thing I didn't account for was how quickly the cutters will dull. It's hard to believe that you can only get about 20 tags from a bit before having to change it. Shouldn't carbide last longer? I will give Ability Plastics a call to get a quote on the cutting of the blanks for me.
Again,Thanks everyone.
Buck
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#7]
6 May 2005
To: buck [#6] 7 May 2005
Phenolic is the most abrasive material I ever engraved, far worse than acrylic.
When doing matrix boards for rubber stamps, (phenolic), I could get 6 three line stamps per bit.
That is using solid carbide bits.
The vacuum system should pick up and trap almost all phenolic dust.
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#8]
7 May 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#7] 7 May 2005
Hiya , some tips with phenolics
1) Tungsten carbide is best , however for phenolics cos of thick caps and abraision , the best is to decrease the included angle of the cutter (you dont need a lot of back clearance for phenolics) , IE make it a steeper V.
2) Use diatsol or BP dromus water soluble cutting fluid (very cheap) available from just about all machine shops. This will allow faster cuts and will extend cutter life by orders of magnitude.
We do a lot of those type labels and can run very large quantites with a single cutter , not only do we engrave with the cutter we cut the plates after with the same bit
A lot of the problems arise cos of cutter chatter , so for this type of job a bottom loading collet is prefered and minimal bit protrusion from the collet is desireable
If you are going to do volume type engraving , then you have to have a cutter grinder , in fact I cant see how any shop that does even modest volumes of any industrial engraving can NOT have a grinder.
Heres a tip : We pay almost nothing for our top grade carbide bits as we go about once a year to the place that makes PCBs and collect a huge box of broken Printed Circuit Board drills which are generally solid carbide , we halve them and make our own cutters out of them , they 1/8th inch mostly and about 2" long.
We pay the guys about 20c a broken drill (the drill section is almost needle thin , breaks quickly) and we walk away with at least 2000 of them - some are 6mm (near 1/4" ) in diameter
With a cutter grinder you are in control and can make the right cutter for the right material and do a lot more besides.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#9]
7 May 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#8] 7 May 2005
Rodney,
I agree with your assessment, that, if a shop does a moderate amount of rotary engraving, an in-house cutter grinder is a "must."
The shop in which I worked, before going on my own, didn't have a cutter grinder. When we sent cutters out for sharpening, they came back with mixed results. Tip sizes were often inconsistent and some of the smaller tip widths didn't perform well.
That wasn't working for me, so the very first piece of equipment I bought, was a used New Hermes cutter grinder (CG-4). I was able to bring peace of mind to my work, not only in knowing the cutters would perform to my specifications, but I was also able to create special-shaped cutters and offer cutter resharpening for neighboring shops.
Having exactly the cutter you need, when you need it? Priceless :-)
BTW - I once ran across a shop that claimed they make so much money on rotary engraving, they don't have their cutters resharpened. They just buy new.
Ooof! I just wish I could remember which shop that was. I'd buy their scrap heap and have a gold mine as a used cutter salesman :-)
EDITED: 7 May 2005 by DGL
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#10]
7 May 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#9] 7 May 2005
David,
There is also another snag with sending cutters off to be sharpened. You send in a first-time-sharpened cutter and get back a short stub. There are some companies who have a history of sending back sharpened cutters that are the requested tip size, but not the original cutter that was sent to be sharpened.
What I have learned to do is send this vendor my stubs in hopes of receiving some added length as a result of the swap.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#11]
7 May 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#10] 8 May 2005
David,
That's a good point and the very reason, when I was promoting my cutter sharpening service, I included the words:
"NOT an exchange - We sharpen YOUR cutters."
From: Arkie [#12]
8 May 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#11] 9 May 2005
Interesting... as a semi-retired engineer myself, I've done a lot of tags for electrical usage... mostly motor control center and control room instrumentation.
I've never yet made one out of a phenolic. I've always used layered Rowmark plastics. Of course, before lasers became popular,we used rotary enngravers, but lasers make them much easier.
If this were my job, I'd discuss this with the client and see if they will accept Rowmark instead of a phenolic. It's certainly cheaper and easier to work with plus you can offer a much larger variety of color combinations.
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#13]
8 May 2005
To: Arkie [#12] 9 May 2005
Hiya Arkie
Depends on the application , generally the phenolics are far more scratch resistant and almost fireproof as well as being able to be cleaned with some agressive solvents etc. For something like an indoor breaker switch panel , plastic normally works , but for heavy duty stuff - it wont last long.
Mostly in my part of the world , contractors wont accept anything barring phenolics cos they tried and tested etc.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#14]
9 May 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#13] 9 May 2005
Same here - if the specs call for phenolic, we have to use phenolic, no matter how much we wish we could substitute Romark instead.
There are certain applications that just call for phenolic.
Cindy M
From: Jim (PUZZLEHEAD) [#15]
9 May 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#14] 9 May 2005
There are certainly applications where phenolic is the better product. But, I have found the majority of the time when "penolic" is specified, they only asked for phenolic because they thought it was a generic term for the little engraved plastic tags. Once they are educated about the newer materials, my customers almost always choose Rowmark's UltraMatte for their engraved tags. I don't even offer any of the non UV stable materials like the satins. The majority of my work is for industrial applications and less than 1% of the tags I make are phenolic. Sometimes when my customer is unsure about accepting non phenolic material, I offer to replace them for free if they do not hold up as well as phenolic would have. Nobody has ever asked me to replace any of the tags.
Jim
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#16]
9 May 2005
To: Jim (PUZZLEHEAD) [#15] 9 May 2005
I hear what you are saying, and when we can we do move clients to the non-phenolic materials also. So many are uneducated, and that is our job - to let them know they have options. It seems that almost all, if not all, our government contracts require phenolic - the specs actually spell it out, so there isn't much I can do about changing them over if that is what the specs request. However, for the specs that don't specifically spell it out, I ask about useage and will make recommendations based on where the tag is going. We've been using a lot of lasered stainless tags also lately.
I'm not a thrilled provider of phenolic, but it does have it's place in our product line. I do charge according to POE (Pain of Engraving) when using phenolic - also, wear on machine & cutters.
Cindy M
From: GBengraver [#17]
10 May 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#11] 10 May 2005
Moved to a more appropriate thread.
Harvey
EDITED: 10 May 2005 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: denimangle [#18]
16 May 2005
To: buck [#1] 17 May 2005
Hi Buck,
Im just getting into engraving so I cant help you there . But my husband has been an electrical contractor for 35 years, I was reading him your post and this is what he had to say. Everyone in the business calls them Phenolic tags but that they dont know the differance between Phenolic & Rowmark. That if he were you he would ask the Contractor & show him the Rowmark. It just might make your job easier.
Hope this helps you out