Full Version: A Day Without Immigrants
From: precisionlaser [#16]
1 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13] 1 May 2006
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#17]
1 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13] 1 May 2006
There are multiple issues to deal with.
1) Use the available technology to prevent more people from entering illegally. (We have satellites, we should use them.) This must be done first.
2) Work out the systems for people who want to enter on a temporary basis for work. (Minimum wage here is what a doctor earns there. Many want to earn the money to build a house back home. The entrepenurial ones add a few extra rooms for rental income and a store front on the first floor. This makes staying in Mexico more desirable for others.)
3) Work out the systems for people who want to enter to stay. (Those who want to learn the language and culture and become citizens. These are the ones who can be compared to my grandparents and great grandparents.)
4) Work out how to handle those who are already her illegally.
Last I heard there is a 10 year waiting list to enter legally from Mexico.
Being convicted of a crime should be grounds for permanent deportation. This should also include use of false ID/names.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#18]
1 May 2006
To: gt350ed [#14] 2 May 2006
Ed,
What do you feel should be done with the illegal who goes to the hospital for care? (Currently the hospital writes it off or medicare pays.)
This is a loaded question because it includes handling our own poor and ID.
Note: Many of the ID's used by Mexicans are not 'fake'. People in Puerto Rico with no plans to come to the US will sell their IDs to Mexicans. The names and photos are similar enough to pass.
From: Mick [#19]
1 May 2006
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#18] 1 May 2006
Ken
"(Currently the hospital writes it off or medicare pays.)"
In both scenarios, YOU and I pay, not the hospital or Medicare !!!!
From: Denny K (JDLASERGIFTS) [#20]
1 May 2006
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#17] 1 May 2006
Ken,
The only problem with #2 is that the money is leaving the US. I don't see any of these people paying taxes. And if they want to start a business in this country the government gives them the buildings and tax breaks. I wish it was that easy for me to get started.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#21]
1 May 2006
To: Mick [#19] 2 May 2006
Unfortunately I'm aware of that. I just dropped my health insurance because I can't afford it. If I got sick, I would be responsible for the bills. And without insurance I would not have the benefit of the negotiated rates. The hospitals would love it if I got sick. The illegal and many legal immigrants don't have the house, car, and credit rating to protect.
( I am also amazed by the number of legal people getting government assistance for paying rent, yet they can afford cable tv, cell phones, SUVs, and other luxuries.)
From: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#22]
1 May 2006
To: Denny K (JDLASERGIFTS) [#20] 2 May 2006
For me, I feel like I have been slapped in the face. Second generation Europeans have been known to shed a tear at the Statue of Liberty, not demonstrate on the platform.
This feels very personal to me and if you look at it on a 1 on 1 level this is the best analogy I have seen.
Dear Illegal Immigrant
You came to my house that my parents helped me buy, said you needed some help. I let you stay in the spare bedroom for a couple of years. During that time I fed you when you didn't have anything to eat, I gave you band-aids when you hurt yourself and did what I could when you needed help. Sure you worked hard during that time, so did I. I also paid taxes, followed the rules and served jury time when it wasn't exactly convenient or profitable. Some of your relatives served in the U.S. military as did many of mine. It doesn't earn us any extra points, it's what you do. I helped you until MY children started to suffer. Imagine my disappointment when one day you are not happy with the spare bedroom, and you demand the master bedroom. Heck, when you first got here you said you'd be happy to sleep on the floor! On May 1st, you block my driveway, make my life difficult and TELL me that I WILL accept you on your terms. When you come "home" tonight, don't expect your key to work.
Signed, Uncle Sam, just not YOUR Uncle Sam
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#23]
1 May 2006
To: Denny K (JDLASERGIFTS) [#20] 2 May 2006
Denny,
I don't see a way to keep money from leaving the country. The best we can do is set up a system for people to work here legally, then atleast we could collect taxes. (I guess that's an argument for income vs sales tax.) Notice previously I attentionally put the issues I felt need to be dealt with, but did not put any solutions.
Make them pay what everyone else pays, but they should not be eligible to collect unemployment, or SS. They should also have a license and insurance for their cars like everyone else. (By the way, many of the illegal residents I've spoken with would get a license/insurance for their car if they could. Many states are now preventing this, but they still need to drive and are taking the chance doing so. - If they get a ticket it doesn't alert immagration.)
Seeing that we're only talking about those who are entering for a limited time with the goal of earning money to send home, I have no problem with also limiting some of the normal tax deductions. And unless their kids have one US parent they should not be citizens. They should not be eligible for credit either. Temporary workers should not be building long term security/lives here.
As I said I would treat those looking to stay differently. Among other things learning English.
Message 3682.24 was deleted
From: Frazee1 [#25]
2 May 2006
To: ALL
Message 3682.26 was deleted
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#27]
2 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#26] 2 May 2006
I reckon you should delete the thread , I KNEW David was opening up a can of worms here!!! :)
Problem is that positions , stances etc taken here polarise the community and this affects the quality of Tech type posts in that in reading em , you are often coloured or skewed by the posters personal position taken and only serves to generate some animosity.
I reckon can it , it's already gettting nasty.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#28]
2 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#27] 2 May 2006
Rodney,
Another very effective option, for those objecting to this thread, or an individual within, is to use the "Ignore" button, a radio button located below the post(s), with a heading preceeded by: "Rate My Interest", which will restore a members peace of mind, by allowing them to "selectively" (for all practical purposes) delete the thread.
That option worked very well for me, in the "Stephen Spence" upheaval.
Some will rate the thread "Interested" while others will choose to "Ignore."
Knowing we have members across the full spectrum of interest, I think freedom of choice should prevail.
EDITED: 2 May 2006 by DGL
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#29]
2 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#27] 2 May 2006
I am sure that David figured that it might be a can of worms also.
I consider it a far more accurate poll of opinions than any pollster can produce. We are far better off by knowing what opinions are out there than burying our heads in the sand.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#30]
2 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#29] 2 May 2006
It's a very emotional issue because it affects us all on a personal level. It's frustrating to be an american citizen and be expected to care of everyone with our tax dollars. It's one thing to take care of the citizens of our own country, but to have people that have come to our country illegally, demand some sort of special rights in this country seems ridiculous to me.
I'm frustrated especially with my political party.......Both major parties for that matter, because neither seems to be doing what's right for the legal citizens here....Everyone is more worried about getting voted in to office, and having cheap labor, than doing what's best for our country, our national security, and our legal citizens.
I Highly doubt that Uncle Steve meant that he would do anything as brash as shoot anyone. It's the frustration that is speaking loud and clear. Once again, the vocal minority is working to shift the rules to their benefit....Instead of having rules that are to the benefit of the whole country.
This problem should unite the majority of americans, but seems to divide....all because so many people feel as if they and others should be entitled to something that was never promised by our forefathers or anywhere in our constitution........Citizenship without due process.
The entitlement attitude seems more prevalent in our society as a whole. People want the government to "take care" of them. They look for someone else to foot the bill, and make everything alright for them.
The realists among us can see that this can't go on forever......
I believe that to fix the mess that we are in, that we must declare our sovereignty and close all borders to illegals. Really close them.....not just say so.
Come up with a good way to make legal immigration easier, and a better choice than illegal immigration.
Decide how best to handle the illegal immigrants that have already found their way into our system. Find ways to create the incentive to go through a process that would allow them to become legal. That means punishing/deporting people that intend to go on without going through this process....
Companies must be held responsible for hiring someone that they know is illegal. Illegal immigrants must be punished harshly if they misrepresent themselves to a company.
These people that would become "legal immigrants in training" would have to pay taxes, and go through this process before they are entitled to any free education, or free health care in this country. Having rewards for breaking our laws becomes incentive for more bad behavior.
Allow the free market to provide the "naturalization" training with classes on English, American History, Sociology, and other worthy subjects.
No one wants anyone to forget their nationality, but they must become Americans First...
My .02
Brian G.
From: UncleSteve [#31]
2 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#26] 2 May 2006
As for the wife comment, you haven't met my ex!
From: UncleSteve [#32]
2 May 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#30] 2 May 2006
Here in NY we have many that are standing on the corners looking for the landscapers to come by. Most are very nice, hard working and just trying to make ends meet, but SOME are the nastiest people I have ever met. They think they are entitled to be hired and throw a hissy fit when they are not selected from the crowd on the corner.
Out in Farmingville, on Long Island, there are "landlords" renting a 2 bedroom house with two baths to 40+ illegals..... You should have seen the problems when the town shut one of the houses down!
I apologize if my comment was upsetting to Dave, but I can only guess he is looking at the problem as an outsider and doesn't have to deal with it on a day to day basis.
From: Gary (GLSHOE) [#33]
2 May 2006
To: ALL
This is something that appeared in our local paper and I thought that it really has some validity. As a vet I kinda feel the same way. I hope this isn't too long of a post but I would like the moderators and our forum host to consider it in it's entirety.
Veterans group sends president its 6-point plan on immigration
By RICHARD DEGENER Staff Writer, (609) 463-6711
Published: Tuesday, May 2, 2006
Updated: Tuesday, May 2, 2006
CAPE MAY POINT  Korean War veteran Patrick Sbarra says he didn't take hot shrapnel in his legs at the Battle of T-Bone Hill so America could become “a colony of Mexico.â€ÂÂÂ
He wasn't fighting for bilingual education as an exploding phosphorous bomb burned his left arm. That day he fought for his country, June 9, 1952, a day when more than 500 of his comrades died, he says he was fighting for a country that spoke English.
Sbarra, in fact, calls it absolute treason that a town in Texas has elected a Mexican mayor and chosen Spanish as its official language. You can probably guess what Sbarra, a national field coordinator for Combat Veterans of America, a group of combat-tested soldiers with chapters in all 50 states, thinks of Monday's immigrant boycott.
“We are just fed up. We combat solders did not fight and die for our country so that these immigrants can fly their previous country's flag. This is our land, not Mexico's,†Sbarra said.
Sbarra, 77, of Brainard Avenue, has a few reasons for feeling so strongly. One is his family history. When his grandfather Cosmo Barra (the s was mistakenly added) emigrated from Italy in 1893 to Staten Island, he wanted to Americanize as quickly as possible. That's the way it used to be, Sbarra said.
“We're Americans now. In my house, you don't speak Italian,†Cosmo used to tell visitors to his Staten Island home.
Learning English is one of six demands the Combat Veterans of America is asking lawmakers to put in any new immigration laws. Sbarra said one of the group's members recently called a heating and air conditioning wholesaler in New York, and the person who answered the phone said he had to speak Spanish.
“That disturbs me tremendously. It's going to destroy our customs, our culture and everything else. That's why we fought World War I, and II, the Korean War, the Civil War, the War of 1812 and whatever. I want the America of Adams and Jefferson, and I'm not the only one who feels that way,†Sbarra said.
Unlike some veteran groups, Combat Veterans of America does not take any public money and does take political positions. Sbarra said some veteran groups are more interested in their clubhouse and their dances.
“When you're in combat, you think differently,†said Sbarra, a retired police officer who served as a U.S. Army medic in Korea.
The group's stance has been sent to President George Bush, all 50 governors and every county clerk in the country. Sbarra drafted most of it in consultation with other veterans. It claims to speak for all U.S. soldiers wounded or killed in the past 230 years and calls for the following changes to immigration laws.
Immigrants must live in the U.S. legally for five years before becoming citizens;
They must learn English;
They will not receive any government funds during this time;
To attend American schools they must have employment and pay taxes;
There will be no bilingual teaching in schools;
They cannot march or demonstrate using a foreign flag.
Sbarra said the combat veterans were distressed by seeing Mexicans in southern California demanding the area be given back to Mexico. He said a border town in Texas elected a Mexican mayor and passed a law to make Spanish the official language. Sbarra said this is treason, and U.S. soldiers did not die in battle so the Mexican flag can be marched down the streets of America.
The group is also against government handouts to immigrants. They say Mexicans come here because America has the best economic system in the world.
“Now they want to turn America into a Mexican system that has not worked for over 100 years,†states the letter.
Sbarra said Combat Veterans have won some previous victories. When leaflets in English were dropped from planes in Afghanistan, the group heard 95 percent of the Afghan people could not speak read English. They wrote the president, and shortly thereafter, the campaign, using radios by then, was broadcast in the native language.
They group also wrote officials in Iraq with advice about combating suicide bombers during the first election. The letter cost $108 in postage, but the advice was followed and the election was successful. Advice included stopping all traffic the day of the election, putting cement blocks around voting booths, and protecting police stations.
The group was the first to call for Purple Hearts for passengers on Flight 93, the Sept. 11 plane that crashed in rural Pennsylvania. Sbarra said they wrote the president and his chief of staff.
“Ten days later  it always happens 10 days later  President Bush gave the highest civilian award to those who tried to take back the plane,†Sbarra said.
Will the latest push by a group of aging veterans get a response? Sbarra said there is another option.
“Maybe I'll take a ride down and help build the wall,†Sbarra said.
To e-mail Richard Degener at The Press:
From: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#34]
2 May 2006
To: Denny K (JDLASERGIFTS) [#20] 2 May 2006
I won't quote the entire article here, but if interested, check out what congressman Steve King had to say. He makes some valid points.
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=139287
I too, noticed on Sunday that the stores were packed, making me wonder what they thought they would accomplish. Monday, I got up, cleaned my house because my wife was at work. Even the toilets (one of those jobs that we legals can't do for ourselves and need these illegals to do for us) and then I went to work (my part time job at a movie theatre that I do for spending cash and free movies) where I cleaned theatres and restrooms for 6 hours (yet more work that we legals can't do) and then I came home and mowed my lawn, trimmed a tree, and root pruned a rose bush that I will be transplanting next week (yet another one of those jobs that we legals can't do). I made sure to exhause my spending budget for the week on Monday as my own little protest against the "boycott" and had a very enjoyable day.
As for a post on this thread that sympathized with the illegals and made note of their right to come up in search of a better life; visit mexico, not the border towns, but down in the heart of Mexico. You will find that they are not a country of poverty. They have jobs available that pay very well. I used to live in Ciudad Victoria, the capital of Tamalupes and people are not starving. They come here because of the free government services they can get (that we pay for by the way).
If you go to some of the government buildings they have brochures that tell you safe ways to cross the border illegally and some that give you tips on how to survive when you get here, such as go to the emergency room for anything clinical because they cannot turn you away from the emergency room.
We are all from immigrants, but they were here here legally.
To comment to another entry on this thread where a question was asked about when the immigration laws started (or something to that effect)...
Immigration law was originally adopted to regulate the flow of immigrants who migrated from Europe to become citizens of the United States. The Immigration Act of 1891 referred explicitly to immigrants arriving "by water." United States did not regulate Mexican immigration in a similar manner. When Congress passed the Immigration Act of 1924, it recognized that Mexico was different. The act set restrictive quotas on immigrants by national origin, but these quotas did not apply to Mexico and Latin America. The 1965 Immigration and Nationality Act eliminated the Eurocentric quotas of the 1924 act, but in so doing set quotas for Mexican and Latin American immigration that while equal to those from Europe, nonetheless would have, if enforced, drastically reduced the flow of immigrants from South of the border. By ignoring the underlying relationship between Mexico and the United States, the act unwittingly created a new class of criminal: the illegal alien. Over the next 20 years, illegal immigrants from Mexico exceeded legal immigrants by about twenty-to-one to one. The outcry over illegal immigration inspired Congress to attempt to restrict the flow on the border. It dramatically upped spending on border control in 1986, 1991, and 1996.
There is a group now trying to raise money for billboards across the nation that simply states "Stop the invasion" and I personally believe that if we do not get a handle on illegals coming across the border first, then take care of the ones that are here and get them out of here, we will see riots and anarchy from the illegals who think that this is a revolution.
This has to be the longest post in the history of this forum, so I will shut up ranting now.
From: Mick [#35]
2 May 2006
To: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#34] 3 May 2006
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