Full Version: DSSI Engraving Folder / EE Announcement
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#189]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#187] 9 May 2006
You may have just thrown that in, but it is a mouthful.
I believe that it is one of the main drawbacks that is causing the most dissension.
The web is an information highway, not a free highway. Absolute proof of that is what you pay for access to the web. DSL is $20-$30 per month. If you have a website, you pay for hosting, not a person does any real work for those fees.
We have been free since the inception of EE. Now that free cookie is going to go away. I remember those thoughts and feelings when DSSI was planning on going to become subscription. It took a long to make the decision that I was going to join the subscription site. It is amazing how fresh that is in my mind during these discussions.
Some of the things in the works require money, not out of David's pocket. Some equipment, but probably most of the money for some professionals to do some of the work. When the time comes to get sections under way we will probably give members who do that type of work the first grab at it, for a reasonable wage. I am not talking about designing a web page, I am talking about many hours of nitty-gritty sort of post production work, necessarily left to professionals in those fields.
Part of the vision is to make this a school for our field along with the instant help. School in equipment is good, but also in marketing, (first test of that has been done and posted), products, and general information that can not be found anywhere on a single site, (some not available anywhere).
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#190]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#187] 9 May 2006
The concept of starting a pay site, from scratch, would have never flown. There's never a guarantee that any forum will fly, regardless of its cost or absence of cost.
I suspect more people are opposed to a pay site, based on principle, rather than outrage at the proposed subscription.
I suspect the reaction would have been just as acrid, at any price.
I can understand people acting on principle alone.
I took a stand, that I'd never become a full-fledged member of the ARA, simply because they have no mechanism of addressing grievances, between their members.
A one-issue deal-breaker.
Does that mean I think the ARA isn't a good organization?
No. I attend the ARA Las Vegas show, religiously, as a paid attendee.
With me, it's matter of principle.
I think the same attitude applies to people who are opposed to the change we're about to undergo; and I respect that.
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#191]
9 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#189] 9 May 2006
The web is an information highway Harvey, not an information tollway for the most part. I didn't just throw that statement in.
I for one would be glad to pay $99/year just to keep up with David and you, but how many Newbies, hobbyists, non-professionals will? Aren't they the core of an ever expanding client base you need to cultivate into the future? Newbies become pro in fairly quick order.
I know I'm probably missing something here as I've never hosted a public chat list web site, but couldn't you generate as much income off advertising as charging a subscription fee?
Let's think about that. Maybe I'm wrong. Let's guess that you have 1000 members who would pay you $100/year. $100,000. Maybe online advertising isn't quite that lucrative, I have no worldly idea how that works. Probably hits per day or some such esoteric thing. And then maybe there are additional charges you have planned for CDs, online training, special events that can't be accomodated on a free site subsidized by advertisement. Pure guess.
Its just my gut feeling that after 6-12 months your core will shrink slightly and then stabalize at around 80% of today's free membership. But you won't be adding many new members especially if they find another free forum, no matter how good or bad that forum is.
Pure speculation on my part.
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#192]
9 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#190] 9 May 2006
EDITED: 9 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#193]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#192] 9 May 2006
I'm saying some people, on a matter of principle alone, see the subscription site as a one-issue deal-breaker.
I was also saying, I can relate to that attitude, due to my stance with ARA membership.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#194]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#191] 9 May 2006
If we retain 80% of our membership you can bet your donkey the rates will drop considerably. If not we will have perks that we never dreamed of or thought about at this point. Nope I think they would drop instead.
For those who do not believe that I would be very happy to split it with the other two moderators of this forum.
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#195]
9 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#194] 9 May 2006
I wish you both well. You have a good thing going here. I was just interested in subscription versus advertisement as a way to keep it all afloat. Still not clear as to your decision but its none of my business really.
I have no problem with generating as much income as you can. You have the right and obligation to max that in any way you can for your partners.
btw, who's the third moderator?
EDITED: 9 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#196]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#195] 9 May 2006
What I attempted to say was that we are not looking to make any money off the site. Nearly all to be plowed back in.
Not aimed at you, but some other people cannot believe that. Their loss.
EDITED: 9 May 2006 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#197]
9 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#196] 9 May 2006
From: UncleSteve [#198]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#197] 9 May 2006
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#199]
9 May 2006
To: UncleSteve [#198] 9 May 2006
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#200]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#199] 9 May 2006
There are ways to provide hands-on instruction, while people are online.
From: Upacreek [#201]
9 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#190] 9 May 2006
I suspect it's the fact that all we have been told the fee will be $99/year and after we pay it, we will eventually find out what we will receive for that expense.
We've all invested a lot of time and research into our businesses and equipment. Look at the number of questions people post when trying to make a decision about their next equipment purchase and if the expense is worth it.
To expect us to pay for something that has no facts and data to indicate what we are receiving for this price, is only asking for resistance.
I think you would have had a much more positive reaction if you had stated exactly what the member would have received for that price.
Before you decided not to become an ARA member, you researched the membership benefits, right?
That's all we're asking. What exactly are the benefits of paying $99/year for a membership?
Michel
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#202]
9 May 2006
To: Upacreek [#201] 10 May 2006
Michel,
If you followed the "My Apologies" thread, I admitted to making my announcement prematurely and apologized for the resulting turmoil.
I was hoping to place a web page, detailing the benefits of joing the pay site, along with the EBS offer, sometime this week.
I'm swamped with work and efforts to create the page, may take longer.
As to your ARA question; a list of benefits, no matter how long or juicy, played no role, in my decision not to join ARA. My decision was based on a single principle, which I've already mentioned.
Some would say that's throwing the baby out with the bath water and in some ways that's true.
I call it standing by a principle and I'm suggesting that's exactly what we'll see from some people in this situation.
EDITED: 9 May 2006 by DGL
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#203]
9 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#200] 9 May 2006
I guess you're right Dave. I could instruct digital photographers off a live web site.
btw, who is your third partner?
.
EDITED: 9 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#204]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#203] 9 May 2006
Mike,
You're the type of person we're willing to pay for that type of web instruction.
The way it was explained to me, is all the people involved, call into a conference call center and are given a password (very much like we did for our first TeleSeminar).
While on the phone, in front of their computers, people ask questions and are given live instruction, showing how to accomplish a given procedure.
It's kind of like a Camtasia Studio Flash Tutorial, except live.
Third partner?
EDITED: 9 May 2006 by DGL
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#205]
9 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#204] 10 May 2006
I could do that.
I thought Harvey mentioned three of you as being moderators/partners. No?
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#206]
10 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#202] 10 May 2006
Hi David,
I know this is a totaly different subject....but........
I understand why you have decided to not join the ARA. Since you have brought the ARA thing up a couple of times now.....I have been curious...........How do you seperate attending shows from joining the ARA? To me, both are supportive of the association. I understand why you go to the shows, and why you like to go, I just don't understand how you can justify the one but not the other. To me they seem to be the same entity that gets the benefit (payment) for your participation.
What makes the action of joining different from the action of participation for you in this situation?
I have always wondered how and why you view them so differently.
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#207]
10 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#205] 10 May 2006
This should answer your question:
http://www.engravingetc.org/forum/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=3769.1
From: Barbara (RGILE) [#208]
10 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#88] Unread
Rodney,
I am a taker of information I will admit that. I am new to the business and have only been engraving for not quite two years. But, I have also been able to help others as well. I love doing it, because I am so grateful when I receive the help. It makes me feel good to know that I have given back to someone.
That said, I realize that we give our information freely, and it was wonderful. But nothing is free anymore, and we received a lot in the time that this forum has begun. I do not mind paying money to enhance my business and to make friends in the business along the way.
You have defiantly been a huge contribution to this forum with your knowledge that you have freely given. But no-one knows it all, and maybe someone will help you along the way, with an idea, or just plain encouragement. At any rate, it's your choice weather to continue with this or not. You have obviously been offended and when you take away the information that you have provided as an expert, it will be missed by everyone.
You have made the comment that the newbies will not be able to join. But David has offered them a month free, and that should show them the quality of something like this. He is also offering a free membership for those who do not have the means to join.
Rodney, this is hard for everyone, but we will miss you if you decide against it. Stay with it, I bet you will be happy that you did, and if you are not, no one will make you stay. Try it for the first month and see.
Barbara
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