Full Version: New Book by Stephen Spence/2005 Conviction
From: Goodvol (JIMGOOD) [#46]
31 Aug 2006
To: ALL
I think everyone needs to decide how they want to handle the situation. It should be a personal decision. Some people will not buy his book or attend a speaking engagement. I don't think there should be a campaign to actively get him thrown out of the industry. The consumer will decide his place in the industry. If no one attends his seminar at a trade show, he won't be invited to too many in the future. If no one buys his books, then he won't make many more. If people want to socialize with him or be a patron of his knowledge or products, then that is their choice. People have the right to interact with him as they see fit.
If he wants to have a prominent place on this forum, the members should have a voice in how that would play out. If any members do not like the response, then each person must decide how to handle this situation. Again, it's a personal choice.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#47]
31 Aug 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#45] 31 Aug 2006
Jim (in his previous post) pretty much sums up my thoughts.
Those who want to buy Spence books or attend seminars will do so.
Those who want to go to the ends of the the Earth, to discredit Spence, will have that opportunity as well.
In reading the "25 Ways to Make Money with Sublimation" published in EJ a while back, Spence was recounting tips he had learned from talking to sublimators and people at seminars.
I imagine the other 100 ways are an extention of that process.
From: Mick [#48]
31 Aug 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#45] 31 Aug 2006
Brian,
EE has to support Engravers Journal and their contributors. They get FREE advertising space there, remember ?
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#49]
31 Aug 2006
To: Mick [#48] 31 Aug 2006
Interesting theory, although patently false.
Our mission statement is to provide an unrestricted flow of information pertaining to the awards and engraving industry and its related processes.
Maybe you'd prefer restricted reporting, as in all the news that's fit to report, except if it has anything to do with Stephen Spence.
If that's the case, you have a long wait on your hands.
EDITED: 31 Aug 2006 by DGL
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#50]
31 Aug 2006
To: Mick [#48] 31 Aug 2006
Although I think your post was very tongue-in-cheek, maybe I'll answer it in a serious manor, (maybe not).
The key word is FREE. We do not take paid advertising at all just because of possible conflicts of interest. While it would be nice for income, we will never be held back or influenced by advertisers money.
The companies that are represented in our membership are definitely appreciated, but are just members as far as the way they are handled. The forum is for the benefit of the membership and the Board of Directors cannot be pressured by money as well as other forms of undue persuasion.
We are vigilantly trying to run the forum for the benefit of our members and for no other reason. David and I have spoken for hours on this subject and with other prominent members at times, we are adamant.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#51]
31 Aug 2006
To: Goodvol (JIMGOOD) [#46] 31 Aug 2006
Hi Jim,
I agree with you about people making how they deal with this a personal choice, but I think people need to be informed about the facts. The reality is that the trade magazines are just going to ignore them and not report on the man that they propped up in the first place. This forum is not going to get very far in getting news to the masses about what kind of man he really is, because of it's limited membership and scope.
I honestly can understand companies that he had represented wanting to distance themselves from him. So when Mike Neer had a press release about him....I was surprised.....Then I saw a copy of that here on the forum, with no mention of his history, and had to mention it. I guess it would be nice to see that real industry "news" make it to some of the trade magazines, so people would understand the situation.
I am not suggesting any campaign against him. Just that the industry news in the trade magazines reflect reality.....not hide it from people by ignoring the obvious.
Unfortunately I think David is probably right. Most people won't remember or care long enough to make much of a difference. The industry trade magazines won't do anything because he advertises with them, and they sell his book through their website (I wouldn't be surprised if they published his book as well)....Why cut off a source of income if you don't have to....
My problem is that I always had a difficult time respecting what he brought to the table prior to any of his problems, the conviction just made me mad enough to express myself about him.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#52]
31 Aug 2006
To: Mick [#48] 31 Aug 2006
Yeah, that's true Mick...........You might be on to something...........
And like my friend David, I always love a juicy conspiracy theory. ;)
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#53]
31 Aug 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#49] 31 Aug 2006
What, you would be any differant than the magazines that you support?
Come on David, a HoseBag is a HoseBag!
Sexual crimes are not acceptable behavior in America, and sexual preditors are not either.
The differeance as I see it here, is you acknowledge the Steven has a jaded past, the magazines are not! Ignorance is bliss!
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#54]
31 Aug 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#50] 1 Sep 2006
Harvey...you are missing Mick's point I believe.
It is not that David is charging for the magazine to post their banner, (Yet), as much as it is a case as David is accepting free space in THEIR magazine to promote the forum!
Doug
New found freedom to speak ones mind is a wonderful thing!
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#55]
31 Aug 2006
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#53] 31 Aug 2006
Doug,
We definitely agree; and information is information.
We're reporting both ends of the spectrum.
From: Upacreek [#56]
31 Aug 2006
To: ALL
If everyone is to stop watching his videos, reading his articles and literature, exactly WHO will people turn to in order to gain this information?
Until there is someone willing to step up and write articles, create training videos that newbies and not-so-newbies can easily purchase and refer to, I don't see an end to his sales.
Michel
From: Goodvol (JIMGOOD) [#57]
31 Aug 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#51] 31 Aug 2006
Hey Brian,
You do bring up a good point. For people to make up their mind, they need the information! I truly don't know the best "forum" (pun unintended!) to pass along the information.
For me I would like to know the information simply to protect myself and my family. Just as child molestors must register and this information is available on-line, I'd like to know that type of information about people that I might come in contact with in any type of public activity. If he wanted to play Santa Claus at a trade show activity I can promise you my kids won't be sitting on his lap!
Truthfully, I don't know how I would treat it if Spence had information that would benefit me in my business. If there was another source, I would definitely go that route. If it was a book or article, I would probably buy it if I needed it. Under the circumstances, it would need to be something I really needed.
I respect the opinion of others. For those who vehemently oppose anything to do with Spence, I respect that. I see it as neither wrong or right. For those who have forgiven him or show no ill will, I respect that, too. Like I said before, it is a personal choice.
Make no mistake that child pornography or child molestation is a dispicable crime and the thought of my kids being in that situation angers me to the point that it scares me what I might do. I don't know what I would do if faced with that situation. At the end of the day I may have my own jail cell so I don't want to minimize the charges against Mr. Spence. As a person and someone working on getting into the business, I don't know the best way to handle this situation. I just think the answer is different for each person.
From: Mick [#58]
31 Aug 2006
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#54] 31 Aug 2006
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#59]
1 Sep 2006
To: Mick [#58] 1 Sep 2006
Mick,
Now that Doug's "got it" maybe you can answer this question:
"How does my mentioning a Stephen Spence book, for sale in Recognition Pro; a magazine that carries no EE advertising (or vice-versa); translate to EE being obligated to promote or support EJ?
I regularly peruse a variety of trade magazines and post information that I think our members may find of interest.
This thread (soon to exceed 60 posts) is evidently, a topic of interest.
EDITED: 1 Sep 2006 by DGL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#60]
1 Sep 2006
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#54] 1 Sep 2006
Doug,
There's nothing newfound about it. It's just a matter of using what's always been here. :-)
From: Barbara (RGILE) [#61]
1 Sep 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#60] 1 Sep 2006
Here is my opinion like it or not. I am a newer engraver, and always looking to come here to aquire knowledge.
If and when a suggestion is giving (in good faith) I can either pick it up, or ignore it. I do not know Stephen Spence, or his work. If I ever read anything about his work, it would have been in the EJ because I suscribe to it.
If someone has a sordid past and is trying to redeem himself and make an honest living, then I say let him do it. You cannot expect a magazine to sign the author as Stephen Spence, aka sexual predator.
I think what he and so many others out there are doing to our children is horrible and wrong. But if he is actually straight now, sorry for what he did and going in a good direction, weather you like his opinions on engraving, etc,or not then that is like me giving you some advice and you deciding not to take it. "Take it or leave it"
Now that I know his past, I would also jump in and say that I would go elsewhere for any information, but if I didn't know his past, I might have read his articles and get what I could out of them. (I still might if I see one)
When Dave said there was a good book out there that he wrote, he was just passing information (not judgement) and you could have taken it or left it. I too would choose to leave it, but some might not.
Realizing that the man has to live. He is also entitled to go into the industry he chooses, and unfortunately it was ours.
If and when I read anything from him, it would not effect me or my grandchildren, unless I ever came in contact with him, and that isn't likely. So let's get back to learning, and getting along.
These things start getting beaten to death, and there is so much more to talk about than someone like that.
It is giving him notariety without us even knowing.
Put it to rest, and don't read his work, or buy the book and learn what you need to know without looking at other things.
Just my opinions, but I had to write them down. It's a catch 22 situation that rots, but that's just the way it is today, and we need to breathe.
Barb
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#62]
1 Sep 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#60] 1 Sep 2006
David, to fully understand the statement for, as Paul Harvey says, "The rest of the story".
Information soon to be revealed!
Doug
From: Mick [#63]
1 Sep 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#43] 1 Sep 2006
Since EJ get big billing at the top here at EE in exchange for EE's free space in their mag, do I assume correctly that they come here to read the posts ?
If not, do you know or can you ask them, what their opinion is of using a known sex offender as a contributor to their magazine. Lets see if we can get a response from them as well as Mike Neer.
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#64]
1 Sep 2006
To: ALL
Wow! Democracy at work here.
I have a question though.
Exactly what you like to see happen to Stephen?
In America, we have a justice system, good or bad, right or wrong...we have a system.
Stephen has been run through the system and it has seen fit to slap him with little prison time but apparently has required that he register as a sex offender. This is not a slap on the hand, especially if one is not secure in their life.
Imagine the embarrasement that his family has had to endure. The looks from the neighbors, the fact that as a family, they can not entertain and have children over (except probably family). If he had not already had a home to return to, he would have had a devil of a time to find a home to rent or even purchase.
I have employed folks, one after over 30 years in the penal system. He was a murderer, a child molester, a theif...seems that he had done it all. I watched him struggle to find a place to live, to find a job and to fill his spare time with activities that were allowed. He was a great employee for 3 years before we closed the business. Sure, we had some issues but were able to deal with them. One of the terms of his employment with us was that he was to accompany me to the local police station, meet the staff, and to understand that they were well aware that he was on property and that they would respond to any request that we had. He also understood that patrol would be increased on our site.
Today, just about 10 years after release, Larry is still a resident of Portland, is driving truck, off parole, but still under the rules of a registered offender.
Bottom line, I'm proud that we were able to look past his personal problems and our own disgust with his actions through life, and provide his with a fair opportunity to make something of the rest of his life. I enjoyed everyday that he was here, working...I knew for a fact that he was not out on the streets, struggling.
I don't support what Stephen did, it makes me sick...but as long as he is following the rules as set for him by the courts, he does deserve the opportunity to live his life. I'd rather vision him sitting in an office writing a book, than in his shop dealing with women and children.
No, I'm not buying his book...I also felt that he was a puppet to his sponsers.
Doug
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#65]
1 Sep 2006
To: Mick [#63] 1 Sep 2006
Spence writes, or has written, for numerous publications. So far, I've mentioned his work in two magazines. There are many more.
Does that mean, I have a debt of allegiance to some and a vendetta against others? :S
I've run out of ways to explain that the EJ banner ad, or the fact that we have an ad in the magazine, carries zero weight, in my decisions or opinion.
I haven't seen Mike Davis, or any of the EJ staff (that I recognize by name or handle) on our visitors list, for quite some time. They may view as guests from time to time. <shrug>
I won't pretend to know what the EJ stance is. Why not get a direct answer from Mike Davis?
publisher (at) engraversjournal (dot) com
Here's another question:
"Why not have trade magazines conduct extensive background checks on all their contributing writers?"
After all, it seems, (from some of the responses I've read), their personal lives and/or past history have a direct affect on their qualifications to produce educational material for the awards and engraving industry.
EDITED: 1 Sep 2006 by DGL
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