Full Version: New braille method for signs
Message 830.1 was deleted
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#2]
16 Feb 2005
To: logojohn [#1] 16 Feb 2005
The Braille system is called the Rastor system from Accent Signage. It was purchased here before I took over, so I don't know the details, but I do believe it requires that you be a licensed user of the process.
We have a New Hermes IS7000XP. There is a special cutter which bores out the hole. After which you can either place Braille dots by hand using an airpump and tool, or there is an apparatus which fits into your spindle and runs back over the dots, plopping them into place. This can be a bit of a bother to set up, however, so unless we're doing large runs with full roomnames in Braille we don't bother to load it.
It's worked out well for us. I couldn't imaging doing Braille any other way. Carving out an area just doesn't look good to me at all.
Braille dots cost about a penny a piece and come in jars of 10,000. We tend to go through a jar in 2-3 medium schools.
As far as the True Type problem goes, we deal with the same thing. It doesn't take too much to correct it, however. Just do as you said. We convert to curves and center an entire column at a time, however, instead of piece by piece.
Sei
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3]
16 Feb 2005
To: logojohn [#1] 16 Feb 2005
John,
I was at Quality One Engravers a while back, and the owner, Fred Schwartz, was toiling away on just the setup you're talking about.
I guess the machine used to require a couple of separate setups, in order to drill the holes and place the beads into the holes.
Fred was working on automating the system.
I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly. Quality One is in the "Links" section. You could call Fred, for a better explanation.
I'm not sure, but I imagine Fred will be exhibing the braille system at the ARA show in LV.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Fred (FREDQ1E) [#4]
16 Feb 2005
To: logojohn [#1] 16 Feb 2005
LJ,
The Raster Braille System with the inserted beads is much better looking, faster installation in some cases and when inserted correctly they are very harder to remove. This process requires a Site License available from Accent Signage or a representing Dealer (same price). I am a Dealer. And any sales always appreciated.
I don’t know if a Xenetech specific font is available but you can specify under Misc\Braille Output Type. This will probably output a single point per dot.
What is required to produce the new method?
Any machine can drill the holes, and then you need to manually push Raster beads in. They have a hand held device to press one at a time in. Or you can change out the cutter to an AutoRaster to insert the beads (change out very time consuming). Only the Quality One engravers can do both in a operation with a dual spindle.
On our engraver the time to drill and insert a simple 15 bead sign 1 up 1:08. About 5 seconds per hole. On larger and matrixed signs the time decreases to 3 seconds. But the great thing is it is all done automatically. We run this on our 2448 and often do 10-40 signs at once.
I will be displaying this in ARA Las Vegas. Come by for an awesome demo.
Message 830.5 was deleted
From: Fred (FREDQ1E) [#6]
16 Feb 2005
To: logojohn [#5] 16 Feb 2005
LJ,
Just so you know. Most of the Braille signs we do are for other engravers or sign people. We don't solicit anymore. There may be someone in your area or if you wanted someone out of your area, we could help you.
The site license is expensive, so when using this process add to the price of the sign. We paid for 1/2 of our license with the first job, that we never expected to get. Aim high when getting in to cover this expense, if you get it great, if not, oh well.
Once your customers see this product, neither of you will want to go back to the routing method.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#7]
16 Feb 2005
To: Fred (FREDQ1E) [#6] 16 Feb 2005
Fred,
Does the old route-out method of producing braille meet current ADA standards?
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
EDITED: 16 Feb 2005 by DGL
From: Fred (FREDQ1E) [#8]
16 Feb 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#7] 16 Feb 2005
I hope it does, I just did a couple for an existing job we did many years back. But I have heard that the route method is not preferred by the actual persons needing to read the sign. The routed dots are often not smooth and can be broken off. The recess is also a common complaint and when two lines are stacked it looks even less pleasing.
Most all the specs I get specify the beads or a rounded dome.
Extra work has come in just as the result of switching to this method. We now do the Raster as a method of choice. gets a lot of ohs and ahs. People with good sight like to touch them. We have 3-4 sign shops that have us doing samples and quotes very often. We get virtually all the jobs so doing a sample or giving them one of our extras, mistakes and ... is no big deal.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#9]
16 Feb 2005
To: Fred (FREDQ1E) [#8] 16 Feb 2005
Fred,
Thanks for the info. As you suggest, the person "reading" the sign should be at the core of a signmakers decision, whether to use the route-out or true braille method.
Off-topic: The person you did the deep-route, into thick aluminum stock, LOVED the finished product. Thought I should mention that, since we rarely get the end-user's feedback, when doing wholesale work.
Very masterfully done.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Mike (EJPUBLISHER) [#10]
17 Feb 2005
To: ALL
The "Raster" method is not new. As other people in this thread have responded it involves using your computerized engraving system with a special cutter and a Braille font to drill holes in the sign substrate. Accent Signage offers the package, including the "Raster balls" in various colors and materials.
The Engravers Journal published an article on the topic in May '02, which showed both the manual and automatic method of applying the beads. More importantly, our March issue which is being mailed now, contains an updated article on the ADA, including discussion about the raised letters, Braille, and the new ADA regulations. The ADA regulations changed in 2004 and a number of people are not aware of the new ANSI standard.
As a matter of possible interest we published an article in October 04 discussing doing Braille signs using a laser engraving system. This is similar in concept to the "Raster" method, except you are using the laser to vector cut the Braille dot holes in a 1/32" substrate, then inserting the beads.
Enjoy!
Message 830.11 was deleted
From: sprinter [#12]
17 Feb 2005
To: Mike (EJPUBLISHER) [#10] 17 Feb 2005
Actually it was around longer than that. I was a rep in 1996 for the original inventor, he sold the patent to the company offering it now. He sold the glass or plastic balls and a modified fish tank air pump that was rewired to make it a vacumn pump to pick up and hold the bead while you pressed it into the hole. The actual drill assembly was sold by a company in Texas , I think it was ARA awards.
It's a great product if your doing ADA, but it's slow going.
From: Birdman (TBIRD1957) [#13]
17 Feb 2005
To: sprinter [#12] 17 Feb 2005
You are absolute correct.
The original system was from DA Edgerton & Associates. He sold a
product license & kit. I purchased my license in January 1998. He use to run a special each January. If you inquired about the "Edgerton Method" (Brite Dotte) during the year and did not purchase one, he would offer it to you about half off the regualar price. I paid $575.00 for my license. I think it is about $1500.00 now. I do think he use to do the ARA shows, and at one time he had a machine that would drill the hole and insert the raster, see attached JPG file. Artisan Engraving Supply in Arlington, Texas sells the drills and bits. Wouldn't even think of doing braille signs without it.
T J Bird
Bird's Rubber Stamps
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#14]
17 Feb 2005
To: Birdman (TBIRD1957) [#13] 18 Feb 2005
TJ,
Can you please resize that image? It's only about 830 kb over our suggested limit of 50 kb :-)
Thanks,
David Lavaneri
Forum Host/Moderator
From: sprinter [#15]
17 Feb 2005
To: Birdman (TBIRD1957) [#13] 18 Feb 2005
tbird,
That's it. Dave only made a couple of his drill machines....they weren't that great. But using a computerized engraver the concept is fantastic.
Message 830.16 was deleted
Message 830.17 was deleted
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#18]
18 Feb 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#17] 18 Feb 2005
Dave,
I had to delete the post of yours with the reduced image for TJ.
It locked me out of the forum twice.
I think the %20, (hex for a space), messed things up. I use WinXP Pro and IE 6.00.2900.
I was finally able to get back on by shutting down my DSL and restarting it.
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#19]
18 Feb 2005
To: logojohn [#1] 18 Feb 2005
John ,
Your query spawned so many responses that I was hesitant to add my comments; nevertheless...
First, I am a distributor for Accent.
Second, assuming you purchase the manual method (standard), you'll curse all of us for a few days till you "get the hang" of dropping in the balls. But it will be like riding a bike after a few days.
Third, Yes the automatic feeder (as Q1's Fred discussed) works on any of your Xenetechs.
Fourth: (David), the route out method is still very much compliant **if** the right cutter is used. That is, if the "bumps" are rounded and sized within specs.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#20]
18 Feb 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#18] 18 Feb 2005
Harvey,
I deleted and resized the 800+K image last night. After resizing I just kept the identification name it had during that process. I think you are very correct in that the %20 in the file name may have been the gremlin that caused our problem with the forum last night.
I have attached the resized image with a more forum-friendly name. Close your eyes and we'll see what happens. 8-)
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