DSSI Engraving Folder / EE Announcement

From:	Franklin (FW_HAYNES)	7 May 2006
To:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	144 of 220

3725.144 In reply to 3725.118
I realize that my statements are getting a little personal, and I apologize to those in this thread who are forced to read the little feud that Rodney and I are apparently having. What I have seen from some pms that were sent to me, that the attitude of some has been projected in this forum for quite awhile. The thing is a lot of people in here get attacked with side comments and they ignore them, I have always had a problem doing that. IT ALL NARROWS DOWN TO THIS...David is the OWNER, DEVELOPER, and MODERATOR of this site. It is his to do with what he wants. HE has chosen to go pay with this site. HE and the other moderators have stated that this is not an up in the air decision, it is going to happen. Anyone not agreeing with this, there is a free sight that was created and plugged on this thread. Go to it. Realize that your complaints are falling on deaf ears and that there are still people in this forum that are for the pay site which justifies the decision of the moderators. The time that certain individuals have spent complaining and (in a few cases) whining, could have been more productively spent on helping get the free site off the ground. Making personal attacks and spending time going back to research every post of an individual to validate their importance in this forum is a waste of time and simply boring to the ones who do not care. I was referred to as a leech in here. There was apparently an indepth study of every post that I have made in here, and then another unsubstantiated alligation made about my posts. My last comment to this (at least on a personal level) is that there is a pm function on this site, if you want to take it personal, then do it in pm. Stop forcing the others to be a part of your self absorbed ego stroking. I can just imagine the the time that you have wasted to analize my posts and critique every sentence to show your intelligence over me because I dared to question your level of tact. I am pleading on behalf of everyone else in here that you are boring to death to just stop or take it to a pm. The glass is neither half empty or half full; it is, however, ready to accept more.

From:	Upacreek	7 May 2006
To:	Franklin (FW_HAYNES)	145 of 220

3725.145 In reply to 3725.143
quote: Now I see everyone that reads this post pulling out there bibles to see what it says Behavior like this does not encourage people to look up proverbs spouted from someone that is being argumentative. I have never met Rodney or any of the other forum members. Rodney could be Sean Connery for all I know and I could be man or woman or teen or retired for all you know. What I do know about people and their character is what I read in the posts. Rodney has concerns, as well as most everyone else who posts on this forum. Yes, he was being snarky, but I'm confident he will calm down once he's taken a breather. I personally find Rodney's posts to be the most informative and helpful with no motive for personal gain. There are other people who have posted beneficial information too, but not to the extent that Rodney has. The core group who set up the forum did a great job in setting up & maintaining the forum, but honestly the most value I receive from the forum is not from their responses, but from the community itself. I enjoy looking at some of the photos they have posted regarding their creations, but it doesn't affect my work. If the forum were converted to "pay to view only", I too would request my responses to be deleted. Sure, I offer plenty of free computer & other advice and help, but it's usually with the knowledge that what goes around comes around and someone may help me some time in the future when I need it. When I pay to help others, those "others" have a Non-Profit 501c Organization status. Michel

From:	Franklin (FW_HAYNES)	7 May 2006
To:	Zonas	146 of 220

3725.146 In reply to 3725.142
I agree that the dictionary analogy doesn't really fit here. Its more like the phone service that you have. You pay a monthly service fee to keep your phone line turned on. The phone company has nothing to do with any of the calls you make, nor do they have anything to do with the calls that come to you just like David has nothing to do with any information that you may glean from other members, but he is the reason that this site exists in the first place and he is the one that has to make sure that programmers are on the ball, everything is running smooth, etc. Most of the time that you have used the phone company you have not had to have a lot of service done, but part of the monthly fee that is paid insures that if anything goes wrong, it will be fixed in a timely manner. The same holds true for this site. I don't know David, but it doesn't seem to me that he is a money grubber or glory hound. If membership grows to the point that he is rolling in Dough, then he will readjust fees accordingly. Also, he is not called stunt engraver for nothing. Should some of the proceeds of this new pay site go to him and help him stay in business, I personally have no problem with that. Why learn from our own mistakes when we can learn from his...Check out the picture of his finger >.< . Just like the phone company it is month to month service. You are not required to pay $99. You can join for a month at (I believe $10- correct me if I am wrong) and should you not get anything, or should you not get the level of insight that you were hoping for, you can just not continue your service. As a rule of thumb, people hate change. In this case, my personal opinion is that change is good. As pointed out by another member, I am primarily a leech by their standards because I haven't posted helpful information as much as others, but I have learned in marketing that a pricetag sometimes tells the level of quality. There is going to be a fee to this site, but if you go to the free sites (especially the one that was recently created using a mutated form of this forum's name as an obvious slap in the face to this site) you will see that they are all taking their cues from this site. One hand- free copy of this site that can only offer so much or the other hand- the site that the others copy from. As a pay site, this site is going to grow and be able to financially add more functions. The glass is neither half empty or half full; it is, however, ready to accept more.

From:	Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD)	7 May 2006
To:	ALL	147 of 220

3725.147

A few points:

1) Had I been asked to donate $100 to help maintain this forum , I would have done so gladly as it's easily affordable to me.

2) Had the fee required to join this forum been reasonable and offered some value to all , I would have had no objection.

3) Had the reason the forum changed been altruistic and not to line someones pockets , I would not have objected.

4) Offering me money for any contribution is an excercise in futility as money is not what drives me , offering me a years free membership (I missed reading that bit) is even more of a slap in the face as its basically almost a bribe to me to keep schtum about this whole debacle.

5) I have NEVER asked that my contributions be deleted , but in the light of the fact that they will be used to draw customers to personally enrich David or others and his willingness to use the delete button , I would object to them being used when and if this forum officially becomes a pay to view entity. I gave them in the light of people helping people , and would suggest those wishing to utilise them to DL and save em before david pushes his magic delete button. It makes no difference to ME whether they are deleted here , I'm not that attached to em. Even in a free to view area , they are still an inducement in terms of a membership drive and it's not acceptable that they are used that way.

6) As to being snarky , well I really dont need an utter newbie to tell me I'm eating sour grapes etc, but I will admit , the better way for me to have handled it would have been to ignore it. Thats what I'm doing forthwith.

7) At no point were the members who have made this site what it is , consulted as to potential changes. This nonsense that it was always intended to be a site that made a profit for the owner was never clearly stated. We all realised at some stage that expenses in hosting needed to be recovered , but not this. worse than this is that now objections are being raised , they are not even being considered or taken heed of.

The issue right now has become a case of whether I really want to be part of something run by a dictator who unilaterally takes actions and has in the past been seen to be somewhat quixotic.
One can admire zeal and initiative , but I fully believe that this notion of what the forum is to industry and what it can possibly become is delusional. I have been on the internet for 12 yrs , seen em come and go , and rest assured , the recipe for this forum that has been proposed is a "see em go" one. But only time and history will prove any party right.

What is really disturbing is that David and co have found the need to make this site "pay" , had this been a drive to recover some out of pocket expenses for running it is one thing , this is not - it is an attempt to milk the goodwill of others for personal gain and flies in the face of all the noble altruistic sentiments that he professes to have.

At any rate , regardless of the direction of this site , I actually no longer wish to participate here or waste time arguing the points. Those that understand my POV do , those that don't , dont.
I have a distinct feeling of being abused and don't like it. We all move on , so will I.

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	8 May 2006
To:	precisionlaser	148 of 220

3725.148 In reply to 3725.136

Mark,

There will be ($) opportunities for people who supply (acceptable) articles or educational content, other than forum posts.

Most of our industry's well-known authors are contractually-bound to exclusivity, with the publications for which they write.

For the short term, I'll be the primary author of articles.

Rodney's an excellent technician, but an author he's not.

I spent valuable time editing Rodney's "Out of The Box Laser Ideas" forum post, to transform it into an article.

Rodney originally agreed to the effort, and also agreed to supply supporting photos for the piece. Upon completion of my edited version of the article, I submitted it to Rodney, who, to this day, has never responded to my questions, as to what he thought of the article.

I asked if the editing, which was fairly heavy, in order to produce cohesiveness and clarity and to provide clarification of South African terms, for a primarily American readership, were acceptable.

After multiple attempts to have that question answered, I didn't want to appear as a stalker and put the project on ice.

This new format effort will have to land flat-on-its-face, before I consider changing its direction and that can only be determined by giving it an actual chance to succeed.

I'm confident that it will.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA

EDITED: 8 May 2006 by DGL

From:	JimK (JUSTTHE4OFUS)	8 May 2006
To:	ALL	149 of 220

3725.149 In reply to 3725.147
Well, I took the weekend off from EE and what do I get? 144 posts in one thread to read. I have a lot of thoughts and some I will keep to myself regarding some posters and their sense of self-importance. In the time I have belonged to this forum, I have received many times more return than I ever have had from any other source, any other source. David, David, and Harvey and others have been extremely instrumental in improving my business and influencing my direction. Others have not because they forget that some of us are small, do not have the in-house resources or vast experience they have, and only tell us what they do, not what we can do to address the issue. In other words, some are helpful, some are not. I am very happy with those staying and those going. Is this forum worth $99? Not to all of us, but to me it definitely is!!!!!!!!! I am willing to wait and listen, as they have asked us to, and not debate things too early. If the new sunscription-based forum has true value added, it will be worth far more than the fee, I am willing to gamble on these guys. I pay far more for a service on Corel-only issues than I will for this. As far as magazines go, once they assume their position in the stack, they are useless down the road when I need an answer. This forum will provide information, and advice on demand, from multiple sources and allow me to make an informed decision. No magazine can do that! The ability to search for information, WHEN I need it, is extremely valuable. Also the ability to share an idea, get feedback, make changes, adjust pricing, find new markets, etc. has no pricetag, it is priceless! To those who leave, good bye and good luck. I'm staying with those that got me this far. Thanks! JimK Jim Kenndy, Sr. Just the 4 of Us Engraving York, Maine

From:	RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)	8 May 2006
To:	Franklin (FW_HAYNES)	150 of 220

3725.150 In reply to 3725.146
Hi Franklin, Interesting life story.........I'm glad you got your feet under you and that you seem to be doing well for yourself now. That story could be seen as motivational to someone that is having trouble with getting on in life.....I wish you the best as you continue to grow your business and move forward.... The difference in your example of a phone company and what has happened over the last week could be likened to a brand new phone company being hatched in less than 3 days. With the much of the same services available in the next few weeks at no cost......I'm not sure if this clarifies what the supposed costs and effort it is to run this forum are or not, as I am not sure what type of programming modifications have been necessary, but I was shocked at the speed and seeming ease of Sprinter setting up a forum that had the same usability as this one in such short order. Either he is exceptionaly proficient, or it's just not that difficult. I have no idea which it is for sure (but I know it wouldn't be easy for me). I think that there can be a place for each forum. No one should feel hostage to this forum, or angry over a second one....The people that move to the other forum wouldn't have paid anyway....The ones that stay here, probably have more personal reasons for staying.....Either relationships, or that they feel it in their gut to give back to David and the others for giving them this forum. My personal feeling is that the "pay forum" should be an exceptional enough idea that the management of this forum shouldn't feel threatened by any "free forum" (similar name or not). David's mantra has been that "Pay is the way". It's time to see if his theory is going to pull through for him. He has been willing to dismiss a good portion of the membership because he knew that a percentage wouldn't go pay.....This is something that was discussed numerous times in the past. I see no need to attack either forum. Thanks, Brian Genrich Rallye Productions Inc. 1-800-236-2036 x112 Custom cut, or sheet stock Sublimatable metal, Screen printing, and other digital print services.

From:	spudislander (WILLM)	8 May 2006
To:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	151 of 220

3725.151 In reply to 3725.148
David, I have had several occassions to meet you, Robyn and your daughter. We have been fortunate to break bread, sip a few beverages, share some laughs and exchange stories. I like you and your family. Now get your head out of your posterior. 140 post to better explain your vision and you haven't. What you have accomplished is. Created competition Divided one of the best behaved and professional forums I have ever visited Driven off many contributors including Rodney. BTW what purpose did you hope to accomplish with your last post attacking his writing skills and revealing what should have remained a private dealing to everybody?? I think it came across in poor taste. Reduced much of the value of the forum that YOU hope to profit from. How can any sane business man ask people to send him money on the promise that he'll make it worth it by providing you something of value somewhere, sometime in the future. Send me $100 and I promise I'll provide you some valuable product - eventually You have become blinded by your own vision. There have been many excellent suggestions made by numerous well thought out contributors. Besides providing the meeting place, what value have you personally provided to this forum that you think is worth a collective $100 per member? I asked the question several times and I'll ask it for my last time- WHY? should I pay you anything. If you finally decide to answer this question, I think you'll alleviate mcuh of the controversy and polarization that you have created with your get money first - tell you what you're going to get later approach. Will

From:	Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)	8 May 2006
To:	Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD)	152 of 220

3725.152 In reply to 3725.147
I will only respond to a few of your points to try to clear up my understanding. quote: 5) I have NEVER asked that my contributions be deleted , but in the light of the fact that they will be used to draw customers to personally enrich David or others and his willingness to use the delete button , I would object to them being used when and if this forum officially becomes a pay to view entity. I gave them in the light of people helping people , and would suggest those wishing to utilise them to DL and save em before david pushes his magic delete button. It makes no difference to ME whether they are deleted here , I'm not that attached to em. Even in a free to view area , they are still an inducement in terms of a membership drive and it's not acceptable that they are used that way. No argument either way, but I do not understand the answer. Do you, or do you not, want your posts deleted when we go subscription? We would love to leave them, but will bow to your wishes. quote: 6) As to being snarky , well I really dont need an utter newbie to tell me I'm eating sour grapes etc, but I will admit , the better way for me to have handled it would have been to ignore it. Thats what I'm doing forthwith. Newbie or oldie, the important thing is 'member'. quote: 7) At no point were the members who have made this site what it is , consulted as to potential changes. This nonsense that it was always intended to be a site that made a profit for the owner was never clearly stated. We all realised at some stage that expenses in hosting needed to be recovered , but not this. worse than this is that now objections are being raised , they are not even being considered or taken heed of. Over the past year there were two nearly identical threads as this one asking for opinions. All opinions were listened to and discussed, guess you missed them. quote: The issue right now has become a case of whether I really want to be part of something run by a dictator who unilaterally takes actions ... Every company is run by a board of directors that ends up being a dictator. If not it would fall apart by everyone going in different directions. In small companies the dictator is the owner if he is smart. quote: What is really disturbing is that David and co have found the need to make this site "pay" , had this been a drive to recover some out of pocket expenses for running it is one thing , this is not - it is an attempt to milk the goodwill of others for personal gain and flies in the face of all the noble altruistic sentiments that he professes to have. I guess you have decided what is happening through your own personal filters and will not allow other opinions to interfere. It would really be nice if we could line our pockets with this. But that is not the intent. Oops, that will not get through the filter. quote: I actually no longer wish to participate here or waste time arguing the points. Only on the participating here part do we disagree. Good luck, and thanks for your past contributions. Philadelphia, PA (Really Bensalem) Harvey's Tips Page When you finally understand it completely... it changes.

From:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	8 May 2006
To:	spudislander (WILLM)	153 of 220

3725.153 In reply to 3725.151
quote: WHY? should I pay you anything. Short answer: You shouldn't, if my plan doesn't appeal to you. Nothing at all, wrong with competiton. It can only serve to drive the action. I'm considering the all the opinions I've read here and entertaining some "tweaks" including a cost-free "approved" forum, with a qualified moderator. Those who are bailing, are doing so of their own accord. No attack on Rodney's writing skills. Just pointing out a fact. He's quite articulate, but there's a decided difference between creating forum posts and a comprehensive, well-written article. I spent a considerable amount of time in turning his post into an article. I'm not looking to be compensated for that time, but a response to direct questions, from several emails, I think most of us would agree, would be following professional protocol. Rodney's shown his true colors in this thread, with the most offensive, calling members of this forum information leeches. I'm actively seeking to recruit all the information leeches I can attract. Of course, I'd refer to them as valuable members of EE.org David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri DGL Engraving Port Hueneme, CA

From:	spudislander (WILLM)	8 May 2006
To:	Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD)	154 of 220

3725.154 In reply to 3725.147

Hi Rodney,

I think you made your points accurately and clearly.

Your posts have been the single biggest reason I tune into the forum. With your departure there is far less value for me here. I have 10+ years experience engraving and come here to leech information about other processes that you and few others bring to this forum. You have been an ispiration for me and many others I'm sure. If I were to ever travel to your part of the world, you'd be on my short list of things to see :-)

While I understand David's direction and agree with his goals of making a profit, I am in complete disagreeance with his methods and model.

As a result I will continue to leech here freely until the time comes when I can not BUT my participation will now be directed to

http://www.engravingetcfree.com

or whatever name it becomes. hope to read you there ;-)

Will

From:	EncompassTech	8 May 2006
To:	Stunt Engraver (DGL)	155 of 220

3725.155 In reply to 3725.129

since you are always talking about DSSI as your "sister" site, I must assume you are referring to me? Trying to get a new conspiracy theory going? :P

It's easy enough to check David.

You can see IP addresses on posts and using your admin utility. I have 2 static IP addresses. I have no idea if I have logged in here with one or two but most likely at some point I have used both of them (if not I would be happy to provide you with both numbers by logging out and logging back in using the other one).

Do either of my IP addresses match sprinter's?

The other way would be to look at the whois data to see who registered the site (and no, we don't go looking for someone to register sites for us).

I really have enough headaches with one site, I don't need more. People who want to may post in the Engraving Folder I setup on DSSI. Yes, it was going to be temporary but I am taking your advice and going to leave it there. I may also setup an embroidery folder since many of my users also do embroidery. No need to setup another forum, there are plenty of embroidery forums out there too. It would be just like your dye sub folder, nice to have a quick place to drop a question if needed wihtout logging into other forums.

Good luck.
Cherie

From:	Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)	8 May 2006
To:	EncompassTech	156 of 220

3725.156 In reply to 3725.155

Cherie,

You finally have confused me.

If you replied to the proper post, I cannot see what you are referring to.

Do you mean we think you are sprinter? Never entered my mind. Why should you take that on in addition to your already overloaded schedule? You are doing a good job on DSSI, and do not need any more overload.

David said in another post that the engraving folder in DSSI might be temporary or may not be temporary. My opinion is that is your choice and I have no reason to look for it to be one way or the other.

Your forum gave David the courage to start this one, for that we are all very grateful. There are nothing but warm feelings toward you and DSSI. There are times I am not sure you know that. Overwork can make some short answers that can look differently than what the mean, so I always give you the benefit of the doubt. I have known you for a long time and like you as a person and as a forum Wizard. (Term of the top forum person, for the unfamiliar. On Beehive it is called the Queen Bee.)

Philadelphia, PA (Really Bensalem)

Harvey's Tips Page When you finally understand it completely... it changes.

From:	EncompassTech	8 May 2006
To:	Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)	157 of 220

3725.157 In reply to 3725.156

yes, it sounds to me like David seems to think I am sprinter... he is referring to "sibling" and he is always referring to DSSI as the "sister site"

ask him.

It sounds to other people that way too because someone else told me about that post. I came to find out what it really said.

I don't care. I know it's not me and he can think whatever he wants. He should just check things that are easily checkable before making accusations like that.

EDITED: 8 May 2006 by ENCOMPASSTECH